How to Be “All There” in Your Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda

Dave: Okay, so today’s a fun day. You know why?

Ann: Yes.

Dave: We’re going to talk about sin in our marriage.

Ann: Oh, I thought you were going to say because JP and Brian are with us. [Laughter]

Dave: Well, that’s basically what I said. We’re going to talk about sin.

Jonathan: That’s what I thought he was going to say, too. [Laughter]

Dave: We have two sinners sitting at the table with two other sinners.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave: Who are JP and Brian?

Ann: First of all, they’re our friends. They are good friends. JP has been on before; it’s Jonathan Pokluda. And we’re talking about his new book called—

Dave: —Why Do I Do What I Don’t Want to Do? That’s why I said we’re talking about sin.

Ann: I would say most of us ask that question daily.

Jonathan: Yes.

Ann: “Why do I do what I don’t want to do?” It’s what Paul said in Romans 7. So, you kind of break that down with—well, JP, you tell us.
Dave: Vices and virtues!

Jonathan: Vices and virtues, which I think, as we talk about marriage, we have an enemy, and he hates marriage.

Ann: And we forget that.

Jonathan: And he doesn't want your marriage to last. He wants you to take the out. I think so often, we get stuck in this defense mode of trying not to sin, trying not to give into that; or even worse, hiding it rather than pursuing the virtuous life that God has for us and that He’s calling us to in marriage. Then, my boy Brian is here. I’m glad you’re here, because the other day, I teased the Art of Marriage®.

Brian: Yes.

Jonathan: They didn’t ask me to say this, they’re not paying me to say this. I’m here because I love these guys. I love the work that God is doing through them; and if you have any influence at your church or even over a small group, find the Art of Marriage and go through it. It will help you. The resource has been out there. I’ve heard a lot of testimonies of how it’s helped people. You guys have made it better. You have given it a facelift, and I’m so excited it’s out there in the world.

Brian: The Wilsons and JP are on it. We know Monica—it’s funny! That’s what— [Laughter]

Jonathan: They’re going to think I’m not married.

Brian: They’re going to think, “Why is this guy sitting by himself?” because we have a ton of couples on this one, whereas we didn’t have that as much on the first one.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: So, we have all these couples speaking together, and there are a couple single guys that speak and husbands that speak, and we actually have a couple women without their husbands that speak. But for some reason, JP is the one who’s got a couch next to him, but it’s like a wide-open space. People are like, “Where’s his wife?”

Dave: Tell us how many years you’ve been working? Two years, three years?

Ann: On this new one.

Brian: On this one. it’s going to end up being about two years.

Dave: Wow!

Brian: Yes.

Dave: You’ve got to be excited. I mean you’re sort of at the end.

Brian: And we’re partnering with a great partner, Right Now Media. They’re kind of the leader—

Jonathan: —love those guys!

Briand: —in small group curriculum and video curriculum. So, it’s immediately going to have a huge distribution.

Dave: JP, in your book, Why Do I Do What I Don’t Want to Do? you mentioned these vices and then the virtue and one of them is busyness and rest.

Jonathan: Yes.

Ann: Oh!

Dave: That impacts a marriage every single day.

Ann: I feel like it’s a killer in our culture right now, especially–does it feel like it to you guys, we’re busier than ever?

Brian: Yes.

Jonathan: Oh, for sure! There are so many stats around information that we take in one day is more than a decade in the past. I’ll butcher the quote—

Ann: —wow—

Jonathan: —it was—it needs no exaggeration because I read it, and I thought, “Wow! That’s significant.” Rest is a hot button. I mean, there are a lot of books being written right now about Sabbath, and rest, and what rhythms look like. I’ve heard “busy” is an acronym: Being Under Satan’s Yoke. One of the tools he uses is just to keep us away from the riches of the Father, the righteous life that He has for us, and the virtues that He calls us to. He just makes us busy.

Brian: Yes.

Jonathan: He just distracts you.

Dave: Now, do you guys feel like you’ve had seasons in your life, maybe one right now, that you’re too busy?

Brian: Oh, yes; and I was thinking about this in my marriage: busyness is a great anesthesia to numb the pain that’s there, that I don’t want to deal with. Whether that’s work or, honestly, I can be busy with entertainment, you know?

Ann: I was going to say, I can get into a Netflix series—

Brian: —yes—

Ann: —and just be gone.

Brian: It is just—that’s exactly right. I can just fill up my calendar with all kinds of stuff. It doesn’t have to be, you know, just your workaholism. It can be every distraction known to man. Every entertainment is at our fingertips, and I can avoid the things that most matter.

Jonathan: We’re not efficient workers anymore. In generations past, if you were going to do a job, you would go to do the job and really focus on that job. If you were going to cut down a tree, you were swinging an ax, and all of your time and energy were going to having that tree fall.

Now, the way that we work is, we work on devices that also have the news, the Bible, [Laughter] social media, and all kinds of information coming at us. So, we’re always kind of working and kind of resting in some ways. It’s a phenomenon they call ‘weisure,’ combining work and leisure together. So, we kind of stay in that mode. I think, if there’s an indictment on me by my children—I think they would say some great things about their dad, but—I think they would say, “And he was busy.” That’s a legacy I’m working really diligently to change. The irony there is a little bit of an oxymoron: hey, what does it look like to work diligently and to rest well?

Brian: That’s good.

Jonathan: You know, to build in those healthy rhythms so that when I’m with my son, I can just be with him.

Brian: Well, it makes me think (and I like what you said, to work at discovering rest or finding that rest); it reminds me of Hebrews where he says, “strive to enter His rest.”

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: There is a striving that, I think, Ann, is what you’re saying: even now, more than ever, because of all this stuff. I’d be curious, what have been really good things for you guys to do? I know for me; I was just at the beach. We live near the beach now that we live here, and the headquarters are here.

Jonathan: Way to flex! [Laughter]

Brian: I know! Yes, sorry about that. We live about an hour [away], and I’m just amazed by how hard it is for me to sit on the beach.

Jonathan: And just—Jen and I did this on Sunday for the first time in a long time, where we just sat there. And I just felt anxious.

Jonathan: I just taught Psalm 46. You get to Psalm 46:10, and He says, “Be still and know that I am God. I just said in front of the congregation, “Do you know how hard this is?” When the earth is giving way, and the mountains are falling into the sea, and there’s a tyrant Assyrian king at your gates wanting to kill you, the most counterintuitive thing to do is to be still and know that He is God.”

In the context of marriage, your spouse—what does your spouse want? There’s a really strong likelihood they want you to be still and to sit with them, and to listen, and/or ask open-ended questions, and just be together. I think, if you’re like me, sometimes I work so hard to change Monica’s desire, because I want to go do that at a restaurant with a white tablecloth [Laughter] and have someone serving us. She’s like, “Well, why can’t we just do that in the living room, sitting right here in our home and on the couch?” I think, “Why can’t you be more like this?” rather than—why don’t I just come her way and just sit there?

Brian: Yes.

Dave: That would mean being fully present.

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: Have you guys—because I had to go through this process. I should have done it in my thirties. I did it just a few years ago, the process of, “Why am I so busy?” trying to get to the root. Ann would say for years, “My husband has five jobs,” and when she’d say that I’d smile and think, “That’s awesome. That’s a badge of I’m a productive guy!”

Jonathan: Yes, it’s a badge of honor. It’s all about the comments.

Dave: I thought it was great until I went and sat down with a counselor a few years ago, and he drew my life up on a board. At the end of five hours, the homework assignment was, “Go home before we meet next week and answer this question: ‘What am I running from’?”

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: I came home and said to Ann, “Greg told me to answer this question?” She said, “DUH! I’ve been trying to tell you this for decades!”

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: And it was one of the first times it forced me to the origin, to the root. “What is it?” You know, in our culture, it’s sort of the busier you are, the more famous, you know?

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: It’s crazy! The more followers you have. It’s all these numbers! And it’s like, “Why are we running so fast?” It’s killing our marriages, and we can feel it, but we keep going.

Brian: Yes, and I wonder—I’d be curious; let’s get super practical: what is it you do to build in that rhythm or that rest? Because you talk about the virtue as rest.

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: So, what does that look like for a marriage? Give me what your best practices are.

Jonathan: You have to find the source of the busyness. I made mention of my phone. Gifts are my love language; acts of service are my wife’s. She loves acts of service. I love gifts. So, I will buy her anything I can [Laughter] to say, “I love you.” I’ve given her some amazing gifts. I haven’t always been in ministry. I was in the corporate world, so I’ve given her some nice gifts; and they’re mostly lost on her, because she doesn’t care much about material things. [Laughter]

One year, I went and bought a box. I cut a slit in the top of the box, and I put a lock on it. I gave it to her, and I gave her the key, and I said, “This is for my phone when I come home,” and she wept.

Ann: Oh! That would be the best gift.

Jonathan: She wept! I’ve never seen her express such deep gratitude for anything, you know? So, I think [it’s] just putting your phone in the drawer so that when you’re present, you’re present. I think it was Rick Warren who first said, “Divert daily”—

Dave: —we put it in our book—

Jonathan: —“withdraw weekly, abandon annually.”

Dave: Yes.

Brian: I thought that was the Wilsons! That was Warren?

Dave: I say it in the book. I say that Rick Warren–what we did with that—he was talking about rhythms in your spiritual life;—

Brian: —sure—

Dave: —we took it to our marriage and said, “We’re going to say this: ‘If you want a great marriage, pray daily, date weekly, retreat annually.’” Same idea, but I want to apply that here—

Jonathan: —so good!—

Dave: —just like you do vertically here.

Brian: So good

Jonathan: I think you can think about that in terms of rest as well. “Hey, you need to create some space.” We just got back from a family vacation where, for a week, I turned off all email, and I deleted all social media just to remove the temptation so that I could be with them. On a daily basis, there needs to be a time where you sit down and check in with everybody, you know? Just a moment when you’re focused on each other.

I’ve heard [that] kids spell love “T-I-M-E,” and then every week you’re making a memory in some way, if at all possible. I’m not trying to be rigid or legalistic about this, but as a regular rhythm, what does it look like for us to go and share a meal together, or stay and share a meal together, or to go bowling, or to play a game? It doesn’t have to be expensive. It doesn’t have to cost money. It’s just time to be intentional with one another.

Dave: Do you guys Sabbath?

Brian: Yes, but it has not been—I mean, I wouldn’t say for most of my marriage we Sabbathed well. We’ve really—over the past three or four years really—tried to be far more intentional with that and just rest, not focus on digital media at all, not do work. Do work that’s not what I’m doing. Actually, working out in the yard is a restful activity.

Dave: Yes, yes.

Brian: It’s not something I do during the week. So, finding those ways to celebrate the Lord, celebrate each other, have fun, and have a great meal together. There’s so much out there right now. There are great books on that.

Ann: Yes. You would think—as empty nesters, you would think, “You guys have all the time in the world!” We have found that we’re busier now than we have been.

Jonathan: Sure; yes.
Ann: And one of the things that we’ve done to carve out that time, because we’re running so hard—

Dave: -–have we done something? [Laughter] I’m waiting to hear what this is.

Brian: Ann has!

Ann: One is, we go to Mexico every year; but the other thing is, we realize since we’re so busy now, that once a year isn’t enough. So, last year for Dave’s birthday, in between my birthday and his birthday, I said, “Let’s go to Las Vegas. We’re going to go for two nights. We’re going to go have great meals.” We saw a couple of great shows.

Dave: Saw John Legend.

Ann: John Legend; the Beatles’ “Love.”

Dave: It was great!

Ann: But it just gives us time [to say], “Hey, how are you doing?” You know? That’s been really good for us.

Dave: You know, it’s funny when you’re a preacher; at least once a year I’ll teach on Sabbath, and then I have to look at my life. Obviously, you’re working on Sunday, so that’s not a day, but to take a full day and rest.

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: Like you said, to sit at a beach and not be thinking, “I’ve got to go do something,” or pull my phone out and start answering emails. It’s really, I think, hard. Bring that into your marriage and say, “We need to rest together,” is critical or your marriage is going to spin out of control.

Jonathan: Yes.

Ann: And, JP, I’m still stuck on your box.

Jonathan: Yes.

Ann: Your box with the phone in it!

Dave: I think I’m getting a box for a gift this week! [Laughter]

Ann: I’m telling you.

Brian: I’m afraid Jen’s going to listen to that [Laughter] and say, “Why don’t you get me a box?”

Ann: Exactly! That’s what I’m thinking, too, because I thought, even when we watch tv, we’ll be watching a show together, and Dave’s on his phone. I say, “What are you doing?” And I do the same thing.

Dave: She did it last night.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: I got her, too: “You talk about me. Look at you/1” [Laughter] You know? It feels like you’re not here, and that’s exactly true. You’re not here; especially as a dad with your kids. They need mom and dad to be fully present.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: Hey, you know, another one that you talk about in this book, that we’ve never mentioned, that I think is huge in the family and in church families: drunkenness as the vice, and sobriety as the virtue. Can we talk about that?

Jonathan: What I talk about in the book is with my dad. Being home, growing up in our home, I never saw my dad drunk. After I left, he got vertigo, and he would self-medicate his vertigo with alcohol. The first day that he met Monica, I took Monica home to meet my parents; he stood up to shake her hand and fell down. I said, “What is going on?!”

Dave: That wasn’t vertigo?

Jonathan: No, it was the first time I had ever seen my dad intoxicated; and then, from there on after, there were a lot of times. Sometimes we would drive home, and I would get home after, you know, a six-hour road trip (when we were living in Dallas). We would drive home to see them. I’d have a conversation with him that night, and then the next morning, have the same conversation. It would stir in me a lot of anger and bitterness and really start our time home in that way.

Then, being in ministry, you see how this impacts so many people. I’m not a doctor, I’m not a scientist—

Dave: —yes—

Jonathan: —but somehow, this is easily passed on from one person to the next. Some may call it generational sin. Whatever that is, you see kind of stays in a family. So, then, I’m looking at myself: “I want to make sure this is not the thing that takes me out.” It has taken many people in ministry out.

Dave: Yes.

Jonathan: We’re not immune to this! Then I see, in marriages, one after the other after the other, one of the spouses is saying, “Hey, the other person, I see them just really checking out, diving into alcohol.” So, this is something that the enemy uses. I’m not old school. I’m not coming saying, “Hey, whatever! Stay away! It’s the devil’s juice.” It’s not that. It’s saying, “This is something the enemy uses to take you out. You need to be sober and alert to that reality.” If you’re in this place where you think, “This is something I need to hide,” that’s usually a giant red flag, a big warning signal. If you’re doing something secretly, any sin for that matter, any vice secretly; if you’re hiding it from others, I guarantee you, you are in a fence with the devil. This is something that lion that prowls around, that enemy that prowls around like a roaring lion, is looking to devour you in that way, if you’re hiding it.

Dave: As a pastor for over 30 years, I saw this grow and grow and grow with church people compared to 30 years ago in my experience. I just saw more acceptance. I’m not saying—again, like you said you know—I’m not saying to have a drink is not scriptural, but to get drunk is. It’s not God’s will for our life. I would go to church events and think, “Wow! There’s a freedom with alcohol here that’s a little dangerous,” and then I would hear people say, like you said JP, they started to hide it.

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: That’s where you need to bring somebody in. I know it's a scary moment to say to somebody, “I may have a problem with this,” and take steps toward sobriety. Maybe that’s not the word you’re even thinking of but get in control to handle this in a productive way rather than a destructive way.

Jonathan: Yes. The other thing I would say is, I mentioned that it’s usually one spouse saying, “Hey, my husband is struggling” or “My wife is struggling in this way,” but sometimes I see it’s in both people, right? They enable that in each other, because that’s what their marriage is built on. They met in a bar. They met when they were intoxicated. They got married and now, as the marriage continues, they have these really unhealthy habits of going out to dinner and drinking too much.

I’m just saying, “You know, the Scripture calls us to ‘be sober-minded, to not be drunk on wine but be filled with the Spirit, for it is not for kings to be drunk’.” We see all of these—you know, the Proverbs, and all of these—Scriptures that call us to sober thinking.

Dave: Yes, you know Brian, you said earlier that busyness is an anesthesia.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: This is, too.

Jonathan: Facts!

Brian: Absolutely.

Dave: You’re covering up some pain.

Brian: And it’s amazing how it has become–I grew up Southern Baptist, [Laughter] so you know we didn’t drink, we didn’t smoke, we didn’t watch R-rated movies, and we didn’t date girls that did. I got to the place where I felt more freedom, but then what I noticed is that, more and more, I think this is becoming kind of the sin of Christians today. We have freedom in Christ, absolutely! But it’s so easy to abuse that freedom. It’s so easy to get to that place of, “Well, we’re always having small groups, and everybody brings wine,” and all that kind of stuff. Well, you know, think about it. Is there anybody who really struggles with this?

Dave: Yes

Brian: It can’t just be about our own pleasure. At some point in time, we’ve got to be cognizant of the fact this trips up a ton of people.

Ann: Yes.

Jonathan: In the book, I talk about these principles, because people say, “Oh, I can drink as long as I don’t get drunk.” I talk about, “Well, you also need to consider, ‘Is there someone there that struggles?” Is there someone there who struggles with legalism? They say your freedom is going to hinder my relationship with God, because I don’t think you should take it. That’s one we never consider, but Scripture speaks to. So, I go through these principles to think through, and it usually surprises people: “Oh, I thought it was just not supposed to get drunk.”

Dave: Well, I would say this as we close: JP, thanks!

Jonathan: Well, I love you guys. I’m so thankful to be here with you. Thank you.

Dave: And thanks for being on FamilyLife Today, but thanks for being a part of Art of Marriage. I can’t imagine how God’s going to use this.

Jonathan: [It’s a] tremendous privilege!

Dave: You could have said, “No, I want to help marriages.” So, thank you. And Brian, thank you for all the work you put in.

Brian: Absolutely!
Dave: I know it was a lot of hours.

Brian: Yes, and it really isn’t just me. We’ve got a great team of people working on it. I think about my buddy, Ed, who’s been helping us with this, and Right Now Media, and the artists and poets that came alongside and crafted this great poem for every session; and the animators and the other voices that are on it.

So, I think with that symphony of the whole body of Christ trying to paint the picture of what God’s intention was for marriage—we’re not going to do that perfectly, but I think with this version, we really say, “God wants our marriage to experience oneness. The only way we do that is if we reflect the oneness of God. What are some of the characteristics of God that we can actually live out on a daily basis?”

We talk about His steadfast love. We talk about forgiveness. We talk about agape, sacrificial love, you know? We talk about devakut, which is this Hebrew word which means “to cleave and cling to one another” through the highs and lows of life. We talk about the word yada, which is the Hebrew word for “intimacy.” We like to joke, “We’re not bringing sexy back, we’re bringing intimacy back.” It’s about being fully known and fully loved.

Ann: That’s good.

Brian: That’s what you want when you get married. You didn’t get married so you could have sex. You got married so that you could have intimacy. What does that really look like? We have some great voices there.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: Juli Slattery and others that are just fantastic on that. On top of that, it wasn’t just to live happily ever after. It was to be God’s euangellion, which is the Greek word for “gospel good news.” Our marriage, your marriage, my marriage, is to be on mission, and we get to bring the grace and the nature of God to all of those around us. How can every marriage be on mission? You can do that by just starting with the Art of Marriage.

Jonathan: Saying, “Hey guys, let’s come talk about—we’re struggling in our marriage; I don’t know if you guys are. We’ve got this video. We’re going to watch it and have a conversation about it!”

Dave: Invite some people over.

Brian: It’s that easy!

Dave: Watch God work.

Brian: Have some food. I’m just excited about what I think God is going to do through this.

Ann: You guys are warriors for the Kingdom. Don’t you feel so honored to be on this path with them?

Dave: Oh, I do. I mean, I feel honored that we’re part of Art of Marriage, because I know how God used it last time.

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: And it’s just so amazing, technology that God has given us that you never think somebody’s going put something like that in their car and invite people over, or they’re going to be invited over, and they’re going to find Jesus.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: And He’s going to save their marriage, but He’s, just as importantly, going to save a legacy, because it’s going to be kids and grandkids.

Brian: I was just talking to a guy, and they’ve been leading Art of Marriage now for nine years, and they had 23 couples who were in this home, and they just got through the day; and 13 people came to Christ!

Ann: Wow!

Jonathan: Let’s go!

Brian: You know?

Jonathan: What else is there?

Brian: What did Dennis Rainey like to say? “Marriage is one of the greatest Trojan horses for the gospel.”

Dave: Yes.

Brian: People may not go to church, but they want their relationships to work.

Jonathan: They may not come to Harris Creek, your church; but they might come to your kitchen, around your kitchen, around your living room, and talk about marriage.

Jonathan: Yes.

Shelby: What if God used you to bring your friends and neighbors to Christ? He can! Isn’t that amazing? He wants to! An easy “in” with people is to help them in their marriages and relationships, and the Art of Marriage is the perfect resource to start those conversations that can lead someone into God’s Kingdom of light. Let’s do it! Let’s do it together!

I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins on FamilyLife Today. You know, we’ve been talking about the Art of Marriage all day today, and we hope you were able to join us last night for the Art of Marriage live preview event to learn why your marriage matters, because it does! If you missed it, Art of Marriage preorders are happening right now. You can go reserve your copy and get more amazing teaching from people like Jonathan Pokluda, Aaron and Jamie Ivy, Vivian Mabuni, and so much more.

You can go to our link in the show notes to find out how to preorder your copy of the new Art of Marriage. Jonathan Pokluda has written a book called Why Do I Do What I Don’t Want to Do? This is a book that really helps you practice virtues. And they’re not just something you do; it’s something that’s done in you, slowly but surely by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

Whether you’re 18 years old or you’re 80 years old, it’s never too late to redefine what’s important to you and reclaim a life of virtue. This book is going to help you with that. It’s going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com or give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-‘F’ as in family, ‘L’ as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Feel free to drop us something in the mail if you’d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.

Now, tomorrow on FamilyLife Today, I’m going to be in the studio with Dave and Ann Wilson. We’re going to listen to portions of my conversation with my friend Brian who’s been a fellow sufferer in life. It’s going to be from my FamilyLife podcast, Real Life Loading. Did you know that I host a podcast for 18–20-year-olds? Yes, I do! I know you’re already subscribed, but in case you aren’t, you can find a link in the show notes to get easy access to Real Life Loading. We’re going to talk about all of that tomorrow and so much more. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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