How to Wreck a Marriage: Jonathan Pokluda

Jonathan: Sanctification is God conforming you to the image and the character of Jesus Christ. It’s the best kind of change, and it’s miraculous and supernatural and amazing; I’m so thankful.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann: This is FamilyLife—

Ann and Dave: —Today!

Dave: Here’s a question for you: If the Devil were going to take you out, how would he do it? And don’t say he’s going to use your husband.

Ann: He would do something with my kids and make me incredibly fearful about that.

Dave: Wow.

Jonathan: Fear.

Ann: Did you think that I would say that?

Dave: Yes.

Ann: You did?

Dave: Well, I thought you’d say something related to the kids or grandkids—

Ann: —you thought it would be fear?

Dave: —because you love them more than me. That’s all I know. [Laughter]

Jonathan: You thought, “He’d take out my husband and send me into a deep, dark depression.” [Laughter]

Dave: He’d give you an upgrade, definitely. And by the way, folks, you just heard the voice of Jonathan Pokluda.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: We call him JP, pastor of Harris Creek Baptist in Waco. What I was thinking as I’m looking over here is, there’s somebody sitting beside you who’s not quite as tall as you are.

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: You might have just set the record for the tallest guest we’ve had, at least in this studio.

Ann: What are you? Six-six?

Jonathan: Seven.

Ann: Six-seven.

Jonathan: Yes; there are not a lot of guys that I look up to. [Laughter]

Dave: No; because you’re tall, too, Brian. That’s Brian Goins, by the way.

Brian: I’m not hugely tall, but you say you’re “awkwardly” tall.

Jonathan: I’m weird tall, yes. I’m weird tall. [Laughter] Once you cross six-five, then people look at you funny.

Dave: Let’s talk about Brian Goins.

Ann: Yes.

Brian: Yes, let’s do that. That sounds like—

Ann: Do it.

Dave: Let’s do it. Tell our audience—

Brian: That won’t take long.

Dave: A lot of our audience knows what you do at FamilyLife^®, but you and Jen do what?

Brian: We do a couple different things. We do have the podcast, Married with Benefits, here on FamilyLife, [and it] has been fun to work with Shaunti Feldhahn.

Ann: It’s so good.

Brian: Yes, that’s been a lot of fun. My wife, Jen, and I have been on the Weekend to Remember^® team for 17 years now.

Dave: You’re our boss.

Brian: Well, I prefer Chief. [Laughter]

Dave: Chief! That’s better.

Brian: That’s right.

Jonathan: That’s what he told me up there.

Dave: You lead the team.

Brian: We do.

Dave: And you groom the team and train the team.

Ann: The Speaker Team.

Brian: That’s a humbling thing when you think about how many years you guys have been on the Speaker Team.

Dave: Don’t ask.

Brian: I won’t, but I know it’s a little bit longer than 17. And then, we also get to work on great special projects for FamilyLife. [We’ve] just created new things. You’ve mentioned The Art of Marriage^®. A lot of people that listen to this love The Art of Marriage, a six-session video curriculum on marriage, and have used it for years in churches, for events, and small groups..

We’ve just redone The Art of Marriage and are so excited to get the new version into the hands of people. In fact, Jonathan Pokluda is on it, and you guys are on it; so, I feel like I’m surrounded by great talent again. You guys have done such a good job in being voices and giving your own authentic selves to—

Dave: —all I know is, God used the original Art of Marriage in such a powerful way! I know He’s going to do the same thing with this one.

Jonathan: I know it, too.

Dave: One time we were asked by FamilyLife—Dennis Rainey back in the day asked us—to speak on the cruise. We’d never been on the cruise, let alone been asked to speak. This is so funny. I say, “So, hey, think about this: Dave and Ann Wilson are going on this marriage cruise to speak. Nobody knows who we are!” Well, we get on the boat. Of course, we hadn’t spoken yet, so nobody knows us. Every person on the boat says, “Hey, Dave and Ann Wilson!” We ask, “How do you know us?” and they said, Art of Marriage. You’re in The Art of Marriage.”

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: You were.

Dave: I think, “Oh, my goodness. God has really used this.” So, the prayer is this one will be used in an even greater way, Brian.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: I’m excited about it.

Jonathan: I hear about it. Truly, if God uses you to restore someone’s marriage, you just see so much gratitude in that. So, even just being associated with you guys, I feel like people think, “Oh, yes. The Art of Marriage, the cruise you mentioned, those things.”

Ann: JP, you spoke on the cruise.

Jonathan: Yes, that’s right.

Ann: And Brian has, too, with Jen.

Brian: Oh, yes. What’s funny about that—you mentioned the cruise. That’s actually where we recorded JP. In fact, if you watch the new Art of Marriage, he’s in there, and then the Iveys are in there. They both have the same background, because we had one room, and we had one shot at this. It was the one time where the seas weren’t too bumpy.

I was just thinking about the book you have been talking about for the past couple days.

Dave: Why Do I Do What I Don’t Want to Do? by JP.

Brian: I thought, “This book has so much to do with marriage!”

Ann and Dave: Yes.

Brian: I just think of how many devices and how many marriages could have that title to their marriage. We do what we don’t want to do. Why is it that we keep doing what we don’t want to do? You talked about it in The Art of Marriage, and I think even this week you talked about how marriage puts a magnifying glass on our sin nature and just blows it up. Why are so many couples—not to use the cruise analogy, but—in this boat?

Jonathan: I think so much of it comes down to expectations with marriage. I think it’s a growing problem as I look at the next generation.

Ann: Me, too.

Jonathan: If you’re a parent of a child that’s not married yet or going into marriage, they think, “Hey, this person is going to complete me. They’re going to fulfill me. Marriage is fun. I can’t wait to get married so I will never have to sleep alone again. I’m going to have this live-in roommate to help me every day.”

You don’t go into it thinking, “This is something I’m going to have to work really hard at.” There are going to be some aspects of fulfillment there, but it’s not there to fulfill me completely. It’s not there to play the role of God. I think expectations are a part of it. I just think the sin nature that we all have—If we could go around, what are the struggles that couples have? What are the sins that seem to cause issues in marriage? What would you say?

Brian: Anger, not knowing how to deal with it. I think it goes back to so much of our family of origin. I just talked to a guy this week; he and his wife are struggling, and it’s like there was not a model for what to do or how to do it well.

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: Then, when I get in it and my spouse, to your point, is disappointing me, or they’re not living up to my expectations, I feel this “check engine” light in my heart is going off, and I’m getting mad; but I don’t know what to do with that anger, so I just give in to it.

Jonathan: I think selfishness which is rooted in pride. I hear a lot: “She just spends so much money,” or “He just spends so much money.” It goes both ways.

Dave: What came to my mind is—and I did this not for a year, [but] I think I did this for over a decade—I blamed Ann for my anger. When Brian said, “Anger,” I thought, “Oh, there I am. That was definitely one of mine.” I always blamed her: “I wasn’t this angry before, but now—.” I think a lot of us do this in marriage. Whether it’s anger or whatever it is, it’s like we turn it toward them: “I’m an angrier man than I ever was. I wouldn’t be this angry if I were single.”

Or we may think, “If I were married to somebody else—.” We think it’s her or him. I was wrong. It was what you said Day One. It was a mirror to me. Ann was being used by God to say, “This is who you are.” Then, like you said earlier, your kids do the same thing, and it forces you to either stay an angry man and be selfish and never change, or say, “I have to deal with this.” This is a gift. She’s a gift from God to point that out.

Jonathan: That’s such a hard situation, where you have one spouse walking on eggshells all the time, and even trying to manage the kids: “Don’t set him off. Don’t make Daddy angry. Let’s make sure the house is peaceful.” Or Mommy, right?

Dave: Yes.

Jonathan: It goes both ways, but that’s a really difficult situation. It’s a hopeful situation though.

Ann: Yes.

Jonathan: That’s always what I want to say. Whatever marriage situation we’re dealing with, James 1:19: “Be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry, for a person’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.” There is a righteous life that God desires, a better life that God desires. There is a life of forgiveness. I’ve seen that, and you’ve become that, right?

Dave: Yes.

Jonathan: I only know you today; I don’t know you then. Anger doesn’t mark you today, and I would say what marks you is grace and forgiveness. That’s the hope that I would give the listeners: God can take the angry person and make them a person of short accounts, make them a person of reconciliation, an ambassador, a minister of reconciliation. He does that work. There is a path toward that.

Dave: I don’t think I would have forgiven my Dad, which a lot of it was family of origin, to be the man that you sense maybe some grace in, without her.

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: She’s the one that looked at me one day and said, “You need to forgive your dad,” which I got angry about. [Laughter] “What are you talking about?” That was the catalyst to say, “God gave me a woman as a gift, to say, ‘I’m going to make you better, if you’ll listen. You have a partner who is going to help you become like Christ, and there she is’.”

Brian: That’s why I love [that] God gave you a voice to help people in marriage bring out the best in their spouse. I see His hand on you and on Ann, so I’m excited.

Ann: How about you, JP? What would you say?

Jonathan: One that I would say I trip over in counseling others and see so predominantly in myself is apathy. I think there is just such a temptation to come home and say, “Okay, I worked hard, and I really need to veg for a minute. I just want to get lost on my devices.” My kind of guilty pleasure is Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist.. [Laughter]

Ann: This is Dave!

Dave: Dude, I am the King of that.

Ann: Yes!

Dave: I go on there—

Jonathan: —there’s our common bond.

Brian: You’re still using Craigslist?

Jonathan: I’m more Facebook Marketplace.

Dave: Yes.

Jonathan: Waco doesn’t have a Craigslist community.

Ann: Are you looking for a deal?

Jonathan: All the time.

Dave: All the time.

Ann: So is he.

Jonathan: So that’s what I do.

Dave: I’ll look for a deal for you. Tell me what you want. I’ll go look for it.

Jonathan: People will reach out and say, “We need a golf cart. Find me a golf cart,” and I say, “I’ve got you. No sweat.”

Ann: And that’s one, for a wife, when our husband’s aren’t engaged, or they’re present but they’re not mentally present, it drives us crazy.

Jonathan: Yes; and just the phone, the idolatrous phone. That’s where it is. I’ll just sit there and scroll, and I’ll look through things. The kids say, “Dad, Dad,” and it’s so convicting to even think about. But what does it look like to save your best for when you get home, for the people that are closest to you? What does it look like to engage?

Sometimes, I’ll pull in the garage and just stop and pray, and say, “Alright, Lord. Please help me in this transition. I have nothing left in the tank. I’m tired. I’m coming from a really tough pastoral care meeting, or meetings all day that have just drained me. Please help me to go in here, because I know some of them are going to be excited to see me, and we’re going to sit down for dinner. You entrusted these three arrows to me. Help me to have something to say, questions to ask.”

Dave: The most important disciples.

Ann: Yes.

Jonathan: Yes.

Ann: Brian, let me ask you: you have revamped and redone The Art of Marriage. There were great things in the old one. Tell us about the new one. Is it different for a new generation, some of the things we’re talking about. Is it in there?

Brian: Yes, it’s funny, even some of the stuff that JP is talking about. Let me just say this: here’s what is consistent about the old and what is new. The old one was great.

Ann: Yes.

Brian: The old one did something different. It wasn’t a talking head. It was like a symphony of voices, and it was also a variety of creativity. Bob Lepine and Dennis Rainey did a fantastic job in doing something different in video curriculum that, again, a church can use for an event or a small group, or couples could go through it. But I think what we’ve really tried to do is: “How do we take that and really move more toward ‘what’s the art?’ and emphasize the art of marriage?”

God is the designer. He’s the creator, and like any artist, whether it’s a book that they’re writing or whether it’s something they’re painting or sculpting, every artist has an intention. They want something to be put on display. So, what we try to ask is, “What would God want to display in marriage? What are the characteristics?” A lot of it really hits on some of what you’re talking about with these virtues.

What are the virtues of God, that when a marriage actually displays that towards one another, the biproduct becomes oneness. The biproduct becomes this sense of joy that we all want in marriage. God never intended us to be glorified roommates, where we’re taking each other for granted and our anger is running rampant. He actually wanted us to experience oneness. That happens when we actually display God towards each other.

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: And we can’t do that on our own. So, one of the things, like JP says, and you guys are in it—he Wilsons are in it; JP is in it. We have a number of other great voices and people from all around the country and different types of art forms that are presented throughout, so we’re really excited about what it’s going to do.

One of my favorite quotes—I’m going to read one from you, Ann, that you have. I’m going to do that towards the end. But JP, you talk about, and it hits on what we’re saying; I’m going to see if you remember it. I’ll start it with a prompt: “If you don’t want to change—”

Jonathan: Oh, “—don’t get married.” Is that what I said?

Brian: Yes. “If you don’t want to change, then you won’t like marriage.”

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: “And if you don’t want to serve—"

Jonathan and Brian: [In unison] “You’re not going to like marriage.” [Laughter]

Ann and Dave: That’s good.

Brian: I think that’s really the problem that we all face: at the end of the day, I’m not stupid. I know the verses. I’m just stubborn.

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: I don’t want to change, and I want you to change more than I want me to change. [Laughter]

Jonathan: Right. It’s like so many things in life. As I spend time with young people on the other side of the altar, before they get married, I say that they need to hear one of two things: they need to hear that marriage is hard, or they need to hear that marriage is good, because some of them have over-indexed on the difficulty of marriage.

Ann: Yes.

Jonathan: They think, “Oh, it’s so hard. I don’t want to get married. I’m going to stay single the rest of my life.” I say, “Oh, but marriage is good. It’s a gift from the Lord. ‘Whoever finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the Lord.’” Not ultimate, and singleness can be good, and Jesus was single, and all of those things, but marriage is good. There’s something there that God has for us.

But some of them need to hear marriage is hard, because they have rose-colored glasses. “It’s going to be easy; it’s going to make me better.” As you move toward that, you just need to know that your role is service and sacrifice. When I turn to Ephesians 5, I’m not even talking about the specific role of a husband and wife; I’m talking about the call on both of those people to make sacrifices for one another and to serve one another. That is what I see in the text when we’re talking about marriage.

It produces something really great in us. When I got married—I’ve told you—[in] year two, the wheels fell off, and I wanted out, because I did not think about that as my role, to sacrifice and to serve her. I thought, “Oh, man, this is fun. It’s like a never-ending honeymoon. It’s going to be a blast.” It got hard, and I wanted out so fast.

Brian: Yes.

Jonathan: I didn’t have the tools, and that’s why I’m so thankful for the ways that you guys have just created so many helpful tools. I hear all the time of just the restoration that is taking place in marriages because of the work that God has done through you guys.

Brian: This is a tool, so talk about the fact—you guys are both pastors, and you’ve served at a church for a number of years. You do a lot in marriage ministry. If we’re going to move towards virtue and move away from vice, JP, you talk about how it’s not about stopping a bad habit. It’s about replacing it with a good habit.

What’s the role of people? Why is that such a crucial thing for couples to engage with others, and how do you even use a tool like that? How would you guys recommend that? How have you seen that at work in your own lives?

Jonathan: To go back to that year two, the wheels fell off, I would tell you that community—and when I say community, think “small group, home group, cell group, life group,” or whatever you call them in your context; we called them community groups at the time; it was actually specifically called a “Foundation Group,” because it was for newly married couples—changed my life more than anything else other than Jesus.

Getting plugged in with these other couples—we’ve said before together that marriage is this mirror that shows you how selfish you are. But in some ways that’s not safe for Monica, right? When I just see her, and I think, “All you are is a mirror that shows me how selfish I am.” [Laughter] But these guys came around me then, and they said, “Oh, no, no, no, you really are that selfish.” I’m like, “Wait, what?”

Ann: And you heard them and believed it.

Jonathan: Yes; and I could say, “But you don’t understand! She—” and they said, “No, no, no, you’re the problem.” I said, “Wait. Hold on. How am I the problem?” I can tell you stories that they said that I was hearing for the first time, that the Holy Spirit just turned the light bulb on, and I thought, “Oh, my goodness. I’m that selfish. I’m that selfish. I need to change. What am I going to do?”

They said, “Well, here’s what you do,” and they knew the Word. We were all at different places in our spiritual journey. Monica and I went into that small group as the furthest from Jesus, if you will, or the furthest from mature Christianity, and God used them. Then, ultimately, I became their pastor, which is a crazy journey. And then recently, one of them even moved with us.

Brian: Wow.

Dave: I was thinking, Brian, when you said that, and I’m sure JP can relate to this as a pastor, one of the discouraging things, I think, is that you’ll spend hours a week preparing this sermon that you—I always said to Ann, “Every sermon has to be Super Bowl. It has to be the best of the best.” Of course, it never was. But when you walk up there to give that sermon, here’s what we know: most people’s lives are not going to be changed by what I say today.

Hopefully, God uses it, and I’m not going to underestimate [how] the teaching of the Word of God transforms lives, but you know as a pastor, “If they don’t do anything else with this hour, nothing’s going to happen in their life.” But if they take that and then jump in a cell group, or a family group, or a life group, or whatever your church calls it (or FamilyLife calls it), and they get in a community with other people, then—in some ways I think, “Wow, I’m not that important. The cell group leader is more important than I am.”

Yes, it’s true. When we got in our first marriage group, when you sit there, this magic thing happens when another couple shares their struggle, and you look at each other. [Laughter] You can’t say it out loud yet, but you get in the car and say, “They’re like us!  They yelled at each other like we did this week. We have to go back.”

Jonathan: Yes.

Dave: And then you start to dig into the Word together, and you get to see God change your life. Every cell group or life group needs a tool, and The Art of Marriage is a tool. That’s what it is.

Brian: Yes, because otherwise you’re just sitting around like, “What are we going to talk about?” We’re going to talk about sports; we’re going to talk about food, what we ate last. This actually gives you the conversations you most need to have, but don’t know how to have. FamilyLife really helps prompt those things to get you a little bit deeper than the superficial stuff. Like you said, Dave, it’s like when you do that, you realize you’re not alone, which is so helpful. I think it’s what the enemy’s goal is—

Ann: —yes.

Jonathan: —to isolate you.

Brian: As long as he can keep you isolated in your house with the garage door down and no one really knows what’s going on, the more that he can keep you—the power of addiction is secrecy.

Jonathan: Amen.

Ann: I remember the first—it was a Sunday school class that Dave and I led. We were in our 20s. We were newly married. We were still struggling in our early years of marriage, and we thought, “Let’s just go through this small group on marriage.” It was—

what was it?

Dave: FamilyLife Homebuilders.

Ann: That’s what it was; FamilyLife Homebuilders.

Brian: Oh, yes. That’s way back.

Jonathan: Yes, yes. I did Homebuilders.

Ann: We thought, “Nobody’s going to come. Who’s going to want to do this?” I think we started out with maybe ten people, so, five couples. By probably four weeks later, this thing had 150 people.

Dave: The pastor came to us and said, “Who are you, and what are you doing? Because half our church is going to your Sunday School.” We said, “Yes, we’re just talking about marriage.” And that’s all it was.

Ann: But it made us realize people are hurting. Nobody’s talking about [it]; people are hurting. Dave and I didn’t have all the answers. We were still struggling, but that probably changed our marriage. But besides Jesus and being dependent on the Holy Spirit, being surrendered to Him, and prayer, that started to change our marriage, by God’s grace.

Jonathan: We did Homebuilders; to your point—

Dave: —you’re not old enough to have done Homebuilders.

Jonathan: I did, I’m telling you. [Laughter] When you say that, it’s crazy—

Brian: They found it at some Half-Price Books! [Laughter]

Jonathan: No, no, no! Somebody led us through it. And I’ll tell you, to your point, the first time we met as a group, just the guys circled up, and Monica called me on the way home and said, “Hey, how was it?” I said, “Oh, it was fine. I’m never going back, but it was fine.” [Laughter]

Ann: You said that?

Jonathan: And I tell people to this day, it was God’s grace to me that the next Thursday rolled around, and I went back, and I sat in that living room, and then I went back. I don’t know why, but God used that more than anything else in the context of community.

Ann: Because Monica was praying.

Jonathan: But it’s funny that there is something that people are listening, and they’ll go to The Art of Marriage, or through The Art of Marriage, and they’ll think, “Man, I don’t want to say this in front of these people. I don’t know them well. I don’t want to go back.” And if you push through that, that is where the real change—we talk about the change that comes in marriage. It’s a good change! Sanctification is God conforming you to the image and character of Jesus Christ. It’s the best kind of change, and it’s miraculous and supernatural and amazing; I’m so thankful.

Brian: Man, that’s such a good word. It’s one of those things where you get the life that you really long for, and not only that you long for, but as we talk about in The Art of Marriage, that actually God designed you for.

Jonathan: Yes.

Brian: He designed you not to be alone. Someone once said, “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” There’s probably no other marathon that’s longer than marriage. We can’t do it alone.

Jonathan: That’s right.

Brian: James 5:17 says, “Confess your sins,” not to God.

Ann: To one another.

Brian: “To one another, and then you’ll be healed.” So, when we confess to one another, there’s so much power in saying, “I want to be healed.”

I’m going to read that other quote, Ann. It’s actually funny. I’m looking at the workbook, and this session—it’s from session three—is all about God’s agape love towards us, which, as we live that out towards each other, agape really means, “I’m going to do what’s best for you regardless of what it costs me.”

Marriage is about me serving and sacrificing on a daily basis. But Ann, you said this, one of the things that we got you on video saying: “I think all of us have a reason to get divorced, because we fail each other miserably. We don’t meet each other’s needs. There are things that we hope for and we don’t get, but there is a great reason to stay in. God renews. God restores. There’s always hope—

Ann: —there’s always hope—

Brian: —for a new day.”

And then, right across from your page, we have JP’s quote, the one I just talked—

Jonathan: Pull my stuff out, and just repeat that. [Laughter]

Ann: No, your is good.

Brian: We’re super excited that this is out, and we believe God is going to use it to really help renew and restore a ton of marriages. So, thank you guys for being a part of this.

Dave: Thank you, Brian.

Brian: I mean, we really appreciate all that you did.

Dave: I know you ‘ve been working on this.

Ann: Thanks, Brian. And JP, it’s so fun to have you in the studio.

Jonathan: I love it. It’s fun for me; it’s more fun for me.

Ann: Thanks, guys.

Shelby: I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Jonathan Pokluda and Brian Goins on FamilyLife Today.

Jonathan has written a book called Why Do I Do What I Don’t Want to Do? It’s going to be a book that really helps you replace deadly vices in your life with life-giving virtues. It’s going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially here at FamilyLife. So, how do you do that? You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word “TODAY.” And you can feel free to drop us something in the mail if you’d like, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.

Today is November 1st, and the day is finally here! It is today. We are hosting our very first Art of Marriage preview event tonight. Do you ever wonder what marriage is actually for? Maybe you’ve wanted more out of what you’ve got in your marriage. Well, we’re going to help you with that.

Aaron and Jamie Ivey, Vivian Mabuni, Jonathan Pokluda, and Brian Goins are going to be contributors tonight. It’s going to be an event that really helps you get a good idea for what The Art of Marriage resource is going to be when it releases. So there’s still time. You can register at FamilyLife.com/ComingSoon or check out our link in the show notes. Be a part of that event tonight.

Tomorrow, Brian Goins and JP are going to be back to discuss the challenges that couples face in marriage, and how virtues play a crucial role in improving your relationships. That’s tomorrow. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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